Hi,
Thank you for pointing me to Paul's excellent analysis. No wonder I could not work out the Scoiety's "reasoning". It is another feeble part of their "foundation".
Doug
Doug Mason
JoinedPosts by Doug Mason
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Another "known unknown" for me: 1919
by Doug Mason inhaving grappled with this question, i decided to turn to the combined expertise at jwn.
my questions relate to the watchtower's self-determined appointment in 1919:.
how does the watchtower arrive at the year 1919 for its appointment?
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Doug Mason
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Another "known unknown" for me: 1919
by Doug Mason inhaving grappled with this question, i decided to turn to the combined expertise at jwn.
my questions relate to the watchtower's self-determined appointment in 1919:.
how does the watchtower arrive at the year 1919 for its appointment?
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Doug Mason
Hi,
Having grappled with this question, I decided to turn to the combined expertise at JWN. My questions relate to the Watchtower's self-determined appointment in 1919:
How does the Watchtower arrive at the year 1919 for its appointment? (Is there a date in 1919?) What Scriptures do they apply? I assume they get to 1918 from Revelation 11 and October 1914. If that is correct, then how do they get to 1919? Is it simply that this is the time when Rutherford was released from prison?
Thanks,
Doug
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Jehovah Witness vs Jehovah's Witness
by Simon inbeing brought up as a jehovah's witness means you are so used to the term that you rarely stop to think about it.. one thing i've noticed is that people unfamiliar with the religion will say "jehovah witness" (no 's) instead which i always found a bit grating.. but watching the us election, something struck me.
people are often referred to as "trump supporters", not "trump's supporters" and so on.
thinking about other things, people would say they were "united fan's", not "united's fans" and so on.. it seems weird that a group would refer to themselves as though it was someone else talking about them (in the 3rd person, if i have that right).. what do you think?
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Doug Mason
The context of Isa 43:12 is talking about the situation of the Judaeans during the neo-Babylonian Captivity (part of deutero-Isaiah).
In that context YHWH is telling the people that even though they had witnessed that YHWH is God, yet they cotinued to rebel. The context finishes up with YHWH saying therefore he would reject them. (Isa 43:22-28)
They had witnessed YHWH, they had seen his punishments, but they continued in their evil ways. Of course this passage was written by scribes who wanted the people to only worship YHWH. They had been fighting a losing battle until tne time of the Babylonians. This was the opportunity taken by the YHWH-only party and the Judah that came out of captivity was quite unlike the polytheistic Judah that went into captivity. Today, we read the propaganda put out by the YHWH-only party. The rest of the nation was illiterate.
Another problem inherited from Rutherford.
Of course, he only applied the term to the 144,000 spirit-anointed. The term was not extended to the rest until well after Rutherford's death.
Doug
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We close this prayer in the mighty god and our everlasting father Jesus Christ amen.
by pleaseresearch inhmmm, how well do you think that would go down?.
you didn't say nothing wrong, isiah states that jesus is such things mentioned.
would brothers and sisters look at you with a smile, or would there be gasps of shock as you closed a prayer like that..
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Doug Mason
Isaiah was speaking about one of his own children, not of some non-human, whether present or in the future.
Doug
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JW Publication Reviews
by lyfe inhi all,i'm looking for a bit of help.
i'm in the process of reviewing the following three jw publications:* the watchtower no2.
2016 why did jesus suffer and die (this is the publication i am unable to find much information online)* was life created 2010 copy* awake no2.
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Doug Mason
lyfe,
(1) Why Did Jesus Suffer and Die? The idea of a substitutionary death comes from the fertile imagination of Paul (the NT's earliest writer). The writers of John's Gospel (written about 60 years after Jesus' death and about 30 years after Paul's death) evolved the Jesus story, saying that one only needed to believe in Jesus, with no requirement for any death. There was any number of followers of Jesus, some of whoim agreed with Paul's imaginings and opinions, and many others who did not agree. The only reason that the Pauline Church triumphed was that it was appointed as the official State religion by Constantine (no doubt urged by his mother Helena - see her Wikipedia entry).
(2) Was life created? Is God alive? Who created his life?
(3) The Bible (and there is any number of versions) that the Watchtower uses was formed by the Trinitarian Church of the 4th century. The Bible is not inspired. A person might believe (hope) that individual documents were inspired (scholars prefer the term inscripturation, given the innumerable corruptions) but the decsion on which writings to include took centuries, and even today there is no unanimous agreement. So ask why the WTS accepts Christendom's Bible(s) and also ask why Christianity uses the Jews' sacred writings. Of course one should argue that the NT is also an assemblage of Jewish documents, although Luke/Acts and the Pastoral Epistles might not be Jewish; I am not certain regarding the document that was written last - 2 Peter, which was written about 125 CE. (Paul did not write Colossians, Ephesians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, or Hebrews).
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The invisible features that underlie Pauline Christianity consist in an elaborate doctrinal construct developed by Paul’s fertile mind on the subject of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Compared to his vision, the theology of the Synoptic Gospels and of the Acts of the Apostles appears primitive, but Paul finds his match in John’s superb mystical portrait of the superhuman Christ.
Deep familiarity with Judaism and at least a superficial acquaintance with classical culture, linked to a powerful spiritual imagination, enabled Paul to re-use the Jewish religious concepts … and create out of these elements an impressive doctrinal synthesis in which Christ was depicted as the final Saviour. (Christian Beginnings, page 99, by Geza Vermes)-----------
Doug
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The starting event of the Watchtower's "70 Years"?
by Doug Mason inaccording to the watchtower society, which event marked the start of the "70 years".
on which day and month did that event occur?.
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Doug Mason
leaving_quietly,
Firstly, the Society is working from an unproveable date of 537 BCE.
As you say, the Insight book only says about October 1, not exactly.
My question remains unanswered: What was the event, the moment that triggered the start of the Society's "70/2,520 Years"?
It was not the destruction of Jerusalem, which as the Bible records occurred during the 5th month (July/August).
It was not the death of the last Judaean king, as we know Jehoiachin was still alive some 25 years or so later.
Do we know when Zedekiah died? Is that relevant? We know when Gedaliah was murdered, but is that relevant?
The Society appears to point to the moment that the last Jew crossed the border into Egypt, but when did that take place? The Bible appears to take so little interest in the date of that supposedly momentous occasion. Some Jews, of course, did not walk south into Egypt as they went eastwards.
Who would hang the totality of their faith and obedience to an organization that relies on these events for its authority and existence?
Doug
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The starting event of the Watchtower's "70 Years"?
by Doug Mason inaccording to the watchtower society, which event marked the start of the "70 years".
on which day and month did that event occur?.
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Doug Mason
Hi Magnum,
It is my understanding that the WTS starts its "70 Years" [of desolations] at the same moment that it starts its "2,520 Years" [of Gentile Rule]. These are the periods I meant and I apologise for my imprecision.
The question in my mind concerned the Society's starting event of that period: (1) When Jerusalem was destroyed [but that was in the 5th month]; (2) When Gedaliah was murdered; (3) When the Jews started on their trek to Egypt; (4) When Zedekiah was captured; (5) When Jews left the soil of Judah [ostensibly leaving the land depopulated.
The following is all I was able to readily locate.
Doug
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The lowly people that King Nebuchadnezzar left behind in the land of Judah had a governor appointed by him over them, namely, Gedaliah. However, he was killed in the seventh month (Tishri), and then the remaining Jews fled down to Egypt out of fear of Babylon, but only to have the hand of the king of Babylon reach them down there later on. In this way the land was left desolate in the seventh month, without man or beast, as Jeremiah had foretold. (Babylon the Great Has Fallen!, pages 166-167)
Jehovah's purpose to have Jerusalem and the land of Judah emptied, desolated of both man and domestic animal. (Babylon the Great Has Fallen!, page 121)
The beginning of the seventy years of Judah's desolation had yet eleven years to wait (Ezekiel 1:1-3) They began after the last king, Zedekiah the uncle of Jehoiachin, was dethroned and when the land of Judah was left desolate. (Babylon the Great Has Fallen!, page 138)
“The cities of Judah I shall make a desolate waste without an inhabitant."—Jeremiah 34:8-22. (Babylon the Great Has Fallen!, page 153)
By the flight of the faithless, disobedient Jews down to Egypt the land of Judah was left desolate, without human inhabitant and domestic animals. This proved Jehovah's prophecy by Jeremiah true. It occurred toward the middle of the seventh month, Tishri or Ethanim (September-October), which would be near October 1, 607 B.C. (Babylon the Great Has Fallen!, page 163)
Like the forty-ninth year of the cycle of sabbaths, the Jubilee year was to be a sabbath year for the God-given land, and so a Jubilee sabbath of the land began in the seventh month, Tishri. (Leviticus 25:8-22) During that month, as the fearful Jews needlessly fled down to Egypt and left the land of Judah utterly desolate and without human inhabitant, a place to be shunned by passersby, the land must have heaved a sigh of relief, as it were. Now it began to enjoy an uninterrupted run of sabbath years in compensation for all the Sabbath years that the disobedient Israelites had failed to keep. How many years of sabbath rest was the land to enjoy? Figuratively, a perfect number of years—seventy. (2 Chronicles 36:17-23; compare also Daniel 9:1, 2). (Babylon the Great Has Fallen!, pages 163-164)
Those Gentile Times, those "appointed times of the nations," would end 2,520 years from near the middle of the seventh lunar month (Tishri) of 607 B.C. (Babylon the Great Has Fallen!, page 180)
Jeremiah chapter 52 describes the momentous events of the siege of Jerusalem, the Babylonian breakthrough, and the capture of King Zedekiah in 607 B.C.E. Then, as verse 12 states, “in the fifth month, on the tenth day,” that is, the tenth day of Ab (corresponding to parts of July and August), the Babylonians burned the temple and the city. However, this was not yet the starting point of the “seventy years.” Some vestige of Jewish sovereignty still remained in the person of Gedaliah, whom the king of Babylon had appointed as governor of the remaining Jewish settlements. “In the seventh month,” Gedaliah and some others were assassinated, so that the remaining Jews fled in fear to Egypt. Then only, from about October 1, 607 B.C.E., was the land in the complete sense “lying desolated … to fulfill seventy years.”—2 Ki. 25:22-26; 2 Chron. 36:20, 21. (All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial, page 285)
The 70 years were to be a period when the land of Judah and Jerusalem would enjoy “sabbath rests.” This meant that the land would not be cultivated—there would be no sowing of seed or pruning of vineyards. (Leviticus 25:1-5, NIV) … When did the land of Judah become desolated and unworked? … When did the 70 years commence? Certainly not following the first time that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jerusalem. Why not? Although at that time Nebuchadnezzar took many captives from Jerusalem to Babylon, he left others behind in the land. …
[The Babylonians] razed the city, including its sacred temple, and they took many of its inhabitants captive to Babylon. Within two months, “all the people [who had been left behind in the land (added by the WTS)] from the least to the greatest, together with the army officers, fled to Egypt for fear of the Babylonians.” (2 Kings 25:25, 26, NIV) Only then, in the seventh Jewish month, Tishri (September/October), of that year could it be said that the land, now desolate and unworked, began to enjoy its Sabbath rest. To the Jewish refugees in Egypt, God said through Jeremiah: “You have seen all the disaster that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them.” (Jeremiah 44:1, 2, English Standard Version) So this event evidently marked the starting point of the 70 years. (The Watchtower, October 1, 2011, pages 27-28)
Jehovah allowed the Babylonians to conquer his people, destroy Jerusalem and its temple, remove Zedekiah from “the throne of the kingship of Jehovah” and take the Jews into Babylonian exile. Events that followed “in the seventh month” led the few Jews who had remained in the land to flee to Egypt, so that Judah then lay completely desolate. (Kingdom Comes, page 136)
Historians calculate that Babylon fell in early October of the year 539 B.C.E. (Kingdom Comes, page 136)
October, 537 B.C.E., which date therefore marks the completion of the foretold 70 years of desolation. That historical information is important to us in determining the beginning of “the appointed times of the nations.” Since the 70 years of desolation for Judah and Jerusalem ended in 537 B.C.E., they began in 607 B.C.E. That would be the year when Zedekiah ceased to sit upon the “throne of the kingship of Jehovah” in Jerusalem. It therefore marks also the date for the beginning of the Gentile Times. (Kingdom Comes, page 136)
The prophet Jeremiah predicted that the Babylonians would destroy Jerusalem and make the city and land a desolation. (Jeremiah 25:8, 9) He added: “And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:11) The 70 years expired when Cyrus the Great, in his first year, released the Jews and they returned to their homeland. (2 Chronicles 36:17-23) We believe that the most direct reading of Jeremiah 25:11 and other texts is that the 70 years would date from when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and left the land of Judah desolate.—Jeremiah 52:12-15, 24-27; 36:29-31. (Kingdom Comes, pages 187-188)
The land of Judah was to keep a “sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.” (2 Chronicles 36:21) How? By lying as a “desolate waste without man and domestic animal”. … Those seventy years of utter desolation of the land of Judah and Jerusalem without man and domestic animal. (Paradise Restored, page 132)
The seventy years of unbroken captivity to Babylon did not begin until 607 B.C.E., in the month Ethanim, when the land was left completely desolate when its remaining inhabitants went down to Egypt. Then the Jews as a nation went into exile at Babylon, without a king at Jerusalem. This exile was for an uninterrupted period of seventy years. (The Watchtower, December 1, 1964, page 735)
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The starting event of the Watchtower's "70 Years"?
by Doug Mason inaccording to the watchtower society, which event marked the start of the "70 years".
on which day and month did that event occur?.
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Doug Mason
Apologies for my lack of precision. The "70 Years" I am referring to is the period related to the Watchtower's "2,520 Years". In retrospect, I should have referenced the latter.
Magum,
I wish that that Watchtower reference was more clearly expressed. We can see they are referencing the departure of Jews for Egypt. From the structure of the grammar, does the period commence when the people started to set out for Egypt or when they crossed the border, thus making at that point the "land where no one dwelt?".
I have located only a few relevant statements in the Society's publications to the start of the "2,520/70 Years", with the most relevant in the 1963 "Babylon the Great Has Fallen!", but for some reason it has gone the way that "forbidden books" disappear.
Ironically, the Society's illustrations of their "2,520 years" show the removal of Zedekiah from the throne as the starting point. But they have problems with that since Jerusalem was destroyed and Zedekiah removed in the 5th month (July/August).
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What scriptures support this:
by jdlvdb inwhat scriptures support the story that the "truth" will be lost till "the time of the end" and that just a random would "rediscover" it?
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Doug Mason
It will be interesting to know when the Watchtower finally does arrive at Truth. They are still changing it, which makes them hypocrites for complaining that others do not (also?) have Truth.
Doug
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The starting event of the Watchtower's "70 Years"?
by Doug Mason inaccording to the watchtower society, which event marked the start of the "70 years".
on which day and month did that event occur?.
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Doug Mason
According to the Watchtower Society, which event marked the start of the "70 Years"?
On which day and month did that event occur?
Doug